This week’s show:
Glenn beck get’s pwnt on CNN.
Dont ask, don’t tell is repealed, dream act fails. We also talk about wikileaks, and the extension of tax cuts.
We review the Visitor and Withnail and I. Tom and Cecil both think The Visitor is a powerful film and give it a 4.5 and a 4.2 respectively. Cecil and Tom also liked Withnail and I but not as much giving it a 3.25 and a 3.0.
We talk about being fundamentalist atheists and cover some e-mail to wrap up the show. We also want to help Andy 3.0 decide if this is Justin Beber or Hillary Swank:
Next time we watch The Road and Mad Max.
Vote for two:
1. Mystery Men
2. Kick Ass
3. The Fall
4. Bottlerocket
I vote for Kick Ass, and The Fall.
Redemption for British Andy! In retrospect the bar was set pretty bloody low with Hero. But redemption nevertheless! It’s good to know that the world still hold hope out for the level of our intelligence. The Gods know I’ve lost all hope here. Tom & Cecil I really truly feel you missed a movie for your best of 2010. “Winter’s Bone” was an amazingly gritty Southern Gothic movie. Living in the South, as I do, very few get the grinding poverty, and unbending pride of the people here correct. This movie did. I beg of you to view it.
That said, my choices are Bottlerocket, as I too am a Wes Anderson fanatic, and The Fall which is an very beautiful movie, and the little girl is a complete gem. I know these picks are both movies that you’d rather rub your eyes with Comet cleaning powder than watch, and probably gives me no chops in referring “Winter’s Bone”, but what the hell. I call them as I see them for good or ill.
A “quid” is one pound sterling. The average wage in the UK in 1969 was £30 (30 quid). A “Blue” is a £5 note.
Here endeth the lesson.
Anyway, C&T, I have to admit that Withnail and I isn’t actually one of my favourite movies!
I think it’s a good film, but most definitely suffers in translation due to it’s “Britishness”. (see Local Hero)
I think it’s beautifully written, very funny (British humour) and wonderfully acted, but has an albatross around it’s neck in the shape of an over zealous fan base who have possibly elevated it to a position that’s higher than it deserves.
It’s an autobiographical flick based on the lives of it’s writer, Bruce Robinson, and his friend Vivian MacKerrell, and their experiences at the end of the sixties.
Withnail is based on Mackerrell, and I (whose actual name is Marwood in the movie) is base on Robinson.
In reality Mackerrel (Withnail) went on to develop throat cancer and die very young, whereas “I” (Robinson) found fame and fortune and went on to write “The Killing Fields”.
By the way, in the original screenplay Withnail left the zoo, took his wine back to the flat, drank it dry, then blew his brains out.
Happy days!
Cecil, if you find “Getinthebackofthevan” funny, then you’re on the way to understanding Britflicks.
Congratulations gentlemen, you have watched two generally much loved British films and come out unscathed……….almost.
Regarding the whole Great big Sky Daddy who looks over us “thing”, might I recommend those jolly, smart-assed folks at The Atheist Experience, and watch those believers get pwned.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheAtheistExperience
Merry Christmas Fuckers.
Mystery Men
Kick Ass
I don’t know what was more uncomfortable in Withnail and I: the characters’ inability to provide basic needs for themselves and, whining and sniveling, beg for food door-to-door OR the close-encounter with man-rape scene. I firmly and *personally* contend cultural divide on the comedy front.
Let’s not be absolutist, shall we? Not all of “those believers” are brainwashed simpletons as is the very general implication above.
I vote for Bottlerocket and The Fall because I’ve not seen either of those films.
Sarah, you’re quite right that was a very broad and sweeping statement that I made there. However, coming from a country that’s considerably more secular that the US, a healthy distrust and discomfort with religion flows freely through my veins.
My ENTIRELY personal view is that Christianity is nothing more than an iron age cult, which has managed to survive into a more enlightened age through wonderfully astute marketing and the ingrained “fear” it encourages in it’s practitioners (Fear that this life is “IT”).
In an earlier post MDS commented that “religion is merely proof of adaptation….religion is a defense mechanism. it was something invented to get through our days”. I concur with him completely on that point, but I suggest that atheism is the NEXT point of adaption.
Surely the human species is now at a stage where we can say “This invisible being in the sky, for whom there’s no evidence…it’s bullshit isn’t it! There wasn’t a guy who rescued all the animals in a boat either was there? And the Earth is probably more than 6000 years old, isn’t it”
Surely we’re all grown up enough to leave those childish things behind?
Obviously, we’re not though are we… and that’s terribly sad.
You might say “Yes, but if someone gets a degree of spiritual (whatever THAT is) comfort through their religious beliefs then where’s the harm in that?”.
Well, I normally wouldn’t deny someone the chance of getting comfort from anything! But when that comfort is reached through the seemingly innocuous support of organisations that continually hide illegal practices and vile opinions beneath pious robes then I have to raise an eyebrow.
See, this is why I usually don’t touch religion or politics on this site. For fear of going off on a rant
To use a Brit-ism; “I have a big gob”
Did you really have to have subtitles on with Withnail and I ? That’s really funny.
I think that one of the cultural divides regarding you and us is that we fucking love an underdog! That’s why we love Withnail. We delight in the fact that he’s an eccentric, snivelling whiner. We also get a lot of enjoyment from those embarrassing, hiding behind a cushion types of comedies that have the power to make our skin crawl (The UK version of the Office for example)
I think the Hamlet soliloquy at the end was terribly sad, because it revealed that Withnail DID have talent but he was a slave to his own inadequacies and alcoholism.
The “thing” that Marwood had to get back to London to do was to sign on for his dole money from the government. Don’t know how it works in the Sates, but over here if you’re unemployed you have to report to the local employment office once every two weeks to sign your signature on official documents.
BA I salute your healthy skepticism. If only America had a Monarchy featuring the inbreed-divine that England does, we’d be able to say, unequivocally “Fuck That!”. Alas, Jim Baker, Ted Haggard, Thomas S. Monson and Focus on the Family minons don’t have the chutzpah of the royals. Give us 10 years eh? However, I would point to Liberation Theology as a form of religion that has been building in the Americas over the last 50 years, that is less a “defense mechanism” and more a justification to fight for a better world. There is no concept of a metaphysical heaven or hell but a focus on an interpretation of Christian faith through the poor’s suffering, their struggle and hope, and a critique of society. While I disagree with most of the mysticism of religion. I do agree that people need to have something to believe in, role models or hero’s to model themselves after, i.e. the Hand of God working through science to cure AIDS or Cancer. Atheism is mind crushing for the man in prison, the peasant digging ditches in Mexico or the poor mother in a Brazilian ghetto because these people have no expectations. They aren’t going to win the lotto, a rich relative isn’t going to give them a vast fortune, they aren’t going to invent the next Google. They toil in a SHIT existence, then they die. In the United States, Liberation Theology is such a afront to our oligarchy that it has be met with Napalming villages in Nicagua, Coup d’état in Argentina, Chile, Peru, and the assassination of Romero in El Salvador just to name a few. Now I know you wouldn’t “deny anyone comfort” and I totally agree with your premise of not blindly following criminals in robes. But I don’t see atheism creating the kind of enthusiasm needed to get people PISSED at a corporation that charges them insane amount of $$ for clean water, or a government that lets 1% own 80% of the wealth. Do you?
If people need something to believe in then let’s have them believe in the values espoused by humanism rather than belief in a supernatural being. Let’s have them believe in something tangible rather than something fundamentally unprovable. If they need role models then point them in the direction of living, breathing, ethically moral creatures.
God is not ethically moral. Read the old testament. He is a shit.
Feeding religion to the less advantaged as some sort of illusory fantasy is immoral and disgusting. Extinguishing the ire of the poor, needy and ill-educated by promising them abundant riches in a fantastical afterlife is exactly the “weasel” promise espoused by right wing fundamentalists in Africa in an attempt to swell the Christian ranks because their religion is weakening in the West (Make no mistake, it’s all about money)
When the tv cameras show me footage of the worried mother whose child has just endured 24 hours of life-saving surgery and she says
“I Thank God for saving my child. Thank God!” I bite my knuckles, hard. God had nothing to do with it. God was not behind the scalpel. Modern science and unbelievably talented human beings were behind it.
If those self same surgeons stepped back from the kid, shrugged their shoulders and said something like “Well Big Fella, he’s all yours”
I’m guessing the prognosis wouldn’t be good.
When you say that you don’t “..see atheism creating the kind of enthusiasm needed to get people PISSED..” it seems to me that you see atheism as some sort of movement. It isn’t. There is no such thing as atheism as a movement. Atheists don’t “stand” for anything, which is why you never see them standing on street corners, holding placards and saying “The day of judgement is NOT nigh”. Atheists don’t need to create enthusiasm for anything at all!
All an atheist has is a healthy disbelief in the existence of a God. Do you believe in Thor? How about Sun Ra? Apollo? No! Congratulations, you too are an atheist.
Finally, Christianity doesn’t have a monopoly on generating a positive reaction to injustices you know. You don’t need Christian values to get PISSED. The Red Cross and Amnesty International (both secular organisations) have been doing it for years.
The only constant that Christian organisations have is righteousness. Show me ANYTHING that a Christian can do that can’t be done by a non Christian then I’ll change my stance.
British Andy,
Your response indicates a notion that ALL of us believers collectively buy into the literalism of Bible lore. Not all do. I’m just as hard on my fellow Christians who ARE literalists. I find that believers who haven’t done their theological homework (or who don’t bother to question) ARE childish.
Your response seems to lump spirituality and religion into one ball of wax, when the two *are* separate. God is separate from his/her failing PR firms. My “comfort” is not brokered through a religious organization. I partook for 29 years as a devout before my personal schism and I recognize more than anyone else (and Cecil can vouch for this) the shortcomings and hypocrisies of organized religion. However, though I distance myself from religious institution, I will also acknowledge that some cursory good has resulted from the business of belief.
I maintain, though, that anyone who proselytizes with an absolutist view, commenting with a false certainty on the allegedly silly and non-existent inventory of another’s personal experience with intangibles such as “God”, in fact, epitomizes immaturity.
I don’t know what you’re life experiences have been that have lead you to your current point-of-view, nor am I going to argue with you as to why you’re right or wrong in your unbelief or if you’re more “evolved” than believers. A belief in the unseen may be a defense mechanism and if you pity us folk who ascribe our life blessings to something other than our own doing… well, that’s fine, too. Neither of us is going to convince the other. All I know is where my own path of experience has brought me and I can reap the joys of my spiritual life while gracefully reacting to your personal views with tolerance, respect and a genuine attempt at understanding.
Hi Sarah, I’m glad to read that you admonish literalistic Christians… you need to admonish more of them.
Spirituality is a horrible word, let’s not use it. It’s been stolen by airy fairy practitioners of Reiki, and feng shui-ers. Nowadays you can be spiritual about God, trees, tattoos of Chinese symbols, and paint.
I totally disagree that an absolutist view signals immaturity. I suggest that it is, in fact, a belief in God that signals immaturity, but we both knew that I’d say that didn’t we.
You can be an honest, moral, loving caring, wonderful person without God. Why on earth bring him/her/it into the equation to muddy the waters?
I didn’t have a religious upbringing, none of my family attended church. I went to Sunday School, and was in the Church Choir for a few years, but soon fell away from it all because I was made to go by my parents (they wanted me out of the house on a Sunday morning each week….can’t think why), and being “religious” in the seventies was the sort of thing that little old ladies did. There was only on religious type programme on tv each week, and that was only for 30 minutes. Today, there are no religious programmes at all. That’s different from the States, right?
I have only become vocal, as it were, in the last ten years as a latecomer to the world of science. I’m more of an arty type as I’m sure you know, and science was always something spectacularly dull and confusing to me at school. I am much more appreciative of it now.
When I say I’m vocal, don’t think I’m some sort of Christian-Hater though, I’m certainly not that. I have friends and relatives who would call themselves Christian, and it’s not like I shout them down and wag a finger at them every time we meet then float around with a general air of “knowing” superiority.
If you allow me a little presumptuousness, I’m guessing you’re from a VERY religious family. Now I don’t have to be Einstein to come up with that, you admit to have experienced 29 years as a devout, but the clue is in the way you SEEM to construct final paragraph. It is packed to the hilt with religious buzz words that are used so frequently nowadays that they have lost all their power. You immediately take on the mantle of one who has had an injustice done unto them. You’ve become righteous. You accuse me of “pitying” you and your “folk”. “Pity” is a Christian buzz word. I’ve met a fair amount of Christians who relish the feeling of being pitied. Then, you take the high ground and turn the tables. You point to the fact that your life experience allows you to “gracefully” react to my views with “tolerance” (unlike the way in which you perceive I have reacted to you?). Finally, you get all pious on my ass and pull out the “respect”, and “understanding” card. BAM!
Now, I hope you noticed I used the term “…SEEM to construct..” earlier on. I use the word “SEEM” because internet comments can so often lack in subtlety and cadence that they can be hopelessly misinterpreted. I may be doing you a disservice here, but whether you notice it or not your final paragraph smacks of the righteous, Christian attitude that gives fuel to the non-believers fire, as it were.
You’re probably right when you say “Neither of us is going to convince the other.” and you doubtless think that a whole lot of “attitude” can be read in anything I’ve written. (see my reply to Free Ham)
The difference is, though, that I thoroughly believe that my “attitude” stems from something that is much more truthful and much less disingenuous.
… I wish you a Merry Christmas, British Angry ♥
BA,
Per your last post, I agree with you 100%. Let me also apologize for my ill speak of your King & Queen. After rereading my post, it was much harsher than I had intended and you have every right to be upset. In the States, we tend to have a diminished view of Royalty. I’m sure the Queen Mum is a fine person, and I’m actually quite a fan of Welsh Corgi’s. That said, I was recently reading an article on a theory an Archeologist, who specializes in ancient Israel, had regarding ancient Hebrew texts. Her theory was that some of the described prophets were, at one time, minor deities of local tribes, absorbed and written in to text by conquering Jewish scribes.
I bring this up because while you correctly advocate for a focus on humanity featuring “tangible” local heros. What’s to stop these role models from being immortalized? Aren’t you replacing one religion for another? It’s quite the paradox. It seems for some, our talking-monkey brains have a tendency for hero worship and idols. What I wanted to suggest in my earlier comment was to EMBRACE your inner Trotsky. Don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater, but replace it with your OWN water.
You challenged “Show me ANYTHING that a Christian can do that can’t be done by a non Christian then I’ll change my stance.” You’ve got me. I can’t. But let me ask you this. This new Übermensch you describe, how is that different than Jesus, The Buddha, Moses, the Dali Lama or any other number of religious figures? If you can explain how this surgeon/humanist/superman you describe is ANY different. I’ll change my stance.
Bloody hell free ham, I’m not upset at all! Criticise our horse-faced, in bred monarchy all you want. The only reason they fulfil the criteria of “Head of State” is by dint of birth, and Henry VIII only changed the entire rule book on religion was to allow him to screw more women than the catholic church would let him!
)
Some of the Royals are good, some are not. I’m not a Royalist by any means, but if you do a quick search on the BBC site for the recent “attack” by students on Charles and Camilla, you’ll see proof that not all of us are forelock tugging serfs. ( I disagree with what the protesters did to them btw, I’m only using it to illustrate a point).
I’m sure you’ll be interested that a fair wedge of the good people of the UK have a diminished view of the Monarchy too, but I’m not sure we’re ready for a Republic though. We tried it a few years back with some chap called Cromwell, right miserable bugger he was. Banned dancing, music, women wearing make up, singing, even Christmas!! I know what you’re thinking. You’re thinking I’d be pleased at that. I wouldn’t. I absolutely love Christmas (otherwise known as the winter festival appropriated by Christians in Europe as a means to make their “new” religion more palatable
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
That’s the problem with messaging on boards like this, it can be difficult to get a proper handle on how someone is actually “talking” to you, if you get my drift. If I ever write in caps, it’s not because I’m shouting but because I can’t find out how to do italics on this board. Looking back at what I wrote to Sarah yesterday I’m concerned that I might have offended HER with what she might rightly perceive as cod psychology at the end. I hope not.
Hopefully, in a more “humanistic” culture, common sense and morality would stop these “local Heroes” from becoming immortalised and idolised. But I realise that’s a fucking big ask isn’t it, and not something I could guarantee wouldn’t happen.
As regards your point how this new Übermensch would be different from Jesus, well he would be around at a time that enjoys greater technological advancement for one. A time where record keeping is more accurate and more trustworthy, and we wouldn’t find ourselves having to wade through the stories of miraculous healing, water walking, and zombification. I hope that he would be caught out by mankind being a little cleverer, that’s all.
Of course, if you ascribe to a certain train of thought then the major difference between him and Jesus would be that he actually exists in the first place.
btw, there’s no proof for Moses or any great migration of Israelites either, and one might argue that some of the reasons the Dalai Lama (as nice as he apparently is) wants to reinstate Tibet to it’s pre-China state may have something to do with slavery of the oppressed, everyday Tibetan. These pre 1950, black and white films we can see of the unsullied, simple, Tibetan folk wearing their wonderful costume and living an almost mediaeval kind of existence look like that because the ruling class of monks were keen that things should STAY that way. They didn’t want grumblings in the ranks, oh no. Grumblings could mean the start of an uprising, and the monks could lose their vice-like grip.
I’m being trite here of course, but it’s all very tricky. Google it.
Oh and, I’m not sure how to break this to you so I’ll just come out with it…..The Queen Mum died a few years ago. I feel your pain.
Many thanks for being willing to wade into the roiling waters of discussions about atheism, religion and “spirituality”. There is so much emotion involved that anyone like you who can make mix it up with good cheer, sincerity and intelligence is a valuable addition to the greater conversation. Of course, it helps that I agree with you.
Also, good on you for wrestling with Interbunny posting issues and trying to communicate honestly. Flamethrowing might be more fun, but tends to leave scorch marks behind.
“The greatest TRICK the Devil ever performed was convincing people he wasn’t real”
That was until I read this post. British Andy. Good Cheer? Sincerity? Intelligence? Valuable? Conversation?? Well, I’ll be a monkey’s Uncle. Lori, you must be new. Or have not been subjected to any of BA’s movie recommendations. But let me tell YOU, I learned the hard way, especially after watching that bloody awful “Hero” movie and reading his circular logic rants defending Withnail & I. The hard truth is you’ll not meet a more rabid jack-in-the-box anarchist bomb thrower than British Andy. He makes the Haymarket Square Riot look like a Boy Scout merit badge competition.
Remember love, the devil is in the details, and behind those details lies…British Andy. cue foreboding music
Lori, you are obviously a wise, sophisticated and highly educated woman.
Free Ham, you’re a lovable idiot….but at least you’re OUR lovable idiot.
*tousles hair
Looking back at the above post I’d like to point out I said “some of the reasons the Dalai Lama…”, that’s “SOME of the reasons…”. Obviously MOST of his reasons have something to do with the way China has conducted itself so violently and cruelly.
I have just watched Miracle on 34th Street (for the first time ever!). I’m feeling emotional I’ve changed my mind about EVERYTHING!
God bless Tiny Tim, and God bless us, every one. Happy Christmas critics
*sniff
And what happened then? Well, in Whoville they say that the Grinch’s small heart grew three sizes that day. And then – the true meaning of Christmas came through, and the Grinch found the strength of *ten* Grinches, plus two!
And a Happy Winter Burning Man Festive to YOU British Andy…
Cheers! Free Ham
I’ll vote for The Fall and Kick-Ass. The Fall is one of my favorite films of all time, and Kick-Ass is simply a great guilty pleasure for me, so the choices were easy for me this time. Tom and Cecil, I think there’s a good chance that you’ll actually like both of these movies. The Netflix description really doesn’t do justice to The Fall. Watch it on the biggest screen you possibly can, and give some time to think about the story after you’ve finished watching it. It’s a spectacular film in every sense of the word.
I also wanted to mention that I was pleasantly surprised to hear that Tom liked Where the Wild Things Are. It is very underrated, underappreciated film in my humble estimation. Much like Michelangelo Antonioni’s L’Avventura, it is a thoughtful, methodically paced and meticulously directed study on emotional isolation. That’s not exactly what everyone was looking for when they went to see Where the Wild Things Are, so I’m always glad to find someone who appreciated that film as much as I did.
Merry Christmas.
@ Cecil — what you said in between the 1:44:30 and 1:44:50 mark was all you had to say in response to my comment from the previous podcast, you cymbal-banging monkey toy. and aces to you on constructing a straw man against my comment by bringing morality and Kant into the conversation.
@ British Andy — religion is inherently bad? check. people should believe in things that are material and natural? check. i had no idea you were an Ayn Rand disciple…
I thought you would be happy with the straw man! It was better than that rambling incoherent group of sentences you call an argument.
QQ
Your tears sustain me!
Love,
Cecil
yes, yes, i’m the incoherent rambler. i guess that’s my burden. but anyway, thanks for the reply. it’s always disorienting to me when you reply to something in writing, given your preference to not reply in writing and then just dismiss it all in audio form. (it’s the personal touches that can win me over easily.)
one last thing (i know, i know, i’m getting dangerously close to your shutdown point of 300 words): i find it kind of funny that you think i don’t like you. (i think you may have even said that i don’t like you guys, which is stranger still because i try to talk to or email Tom as much as his and my work/life schedule allows for.) other than the fake hate mail i sent (which was, you know, fake), i didn’t think i had ever given you a reason to think that i didn’t like you. i just disagree with you on stuff, and sometimes play Devil’s advocate. and really nothing more than that. granted, this comment and my last comment has a slight caustic tone to it, but that has more to do with the fact that i guess i’ll just play the part that you’ve assigned to me: of someone who (apparently) doesn’t like you.
I’ll vote for Mystery Men and The Fall, but I wish Real Genius was on the list. I just lurves me some underage smartypants.
You know what I’d like to see on this site?
I’d like to see a comprehensive list of all the movies watched by C&T since the start of “Everyone’s a Critic”, in order of rating.
I think it would be a good thing.
Ask and you shall receive….
Top of the page you can see two new pages:
Past Reviews and Ratings
and
Rating Stats.
Enjoy.
Holy shit, that was quick!
Mystery Men + Kick Ass. Cecil will thank me, Tom will hate me
Mystery Men & Kick Ass
Kick Ass – that movie made me like Nick Cage again, for about 1 1/2 hours. Not since Raising Arizona have I enjoyed seeing him on screen.
The Fall – I have never heard of this movie. I want to hear C&T talk about it though.
Let’s go with Kick Ass and Mystery Men. Bottle Rocket was so unbelievably insipid it made me want to claw my own eyes out. Don’t know The Fall.